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The hearings starting the IR ST stop talking -- behind the scenes -- Wheeling and dealing.
Just beginning to get more of these Indians talking.
Legal experts have already told us on this very program that is how you get folks to testify in turn.
You grant them some clown in Syria and deals and does go to Jeffrey Wagoner knows this process well and he did it without a net.
Because and its famous whistle blower revealed to the world -- tobacco -- brown and Williamson was spiking it cigarettes and worse.
Making them even more addictive he not only invited the wrath of that company.
But an entire industry.
-- and devices out.
Tell the true.
-- -- Separates them from -- -- groups.
Forever -- -- of that movie the insider in which Russell Crowe played his terror.
Jeff what if they get these characters and what you've seen at a -- -- I'm still waiting for the guys like you might emerge to reveal something more maybe -- -- maybe they're not.
Well I -- just thought this whole process thought -- would the IRS in 2010.
And we haven't seen much of anybody coming followed with.
-- and moral or are unethical almost certainly looking like criminal activities come forward and it's kind of surprising.
But nobody is -- that follow it I guess what's gonna have to happen as the Justice Department's bat bat that you don't give them immunity for testimony.
And -- and find out who's the cast of characters that are actually responsible.
Not -- the implementation but the approval of the process.
And he's only a few rogue agents or is it a whole system that.
Was turned upside down there and it in 20102011.
Now at the 2000 -- -- -- I'm.
In your case do you knew something was amiss here and and and the company was lying.
And and doing something deceitful and I'm always trying to give the benefit of the doubt -- some of these other scandals that.
Maybe these whether -- rolled RS agents are groups following their orders.
They told what they were doing was on the up and up and no one connected the ethical -- to say this is wrong.
You think about.
That there's definitely an ethical disconnect here I mean I don't know what the culture.
In the IRS's I can tell you at the culture was then.
The company I work for brown Williamson it was do most anything to prevent the outside world for understanding what the truth was.
And that was part of the culture and well.
There's no veterans Jeff I need you you obviously -- -- -- -- and they know they did it.
Things are being -- manipulated come the company was lying misrepresenting itself and parts.
Almost certainly they do they know it and I mean it was controlled by lawyers and -- -- instructed the scientists how to write they added -- papers.
At a dead air at their conversations -- communications and meetings only to prevent anything from ever being discovered and then also the same time.
Scientists like myself was trained to what to say outside the company vs what you could say inside the company so there was a culture of keeping it.
Inside and never letting the facts outside and -- it was reluctantly produced and.
I don't know I don't know -- guys like you Jeff and and another when I see these kind of things pop up now on the -- Enron scandal comes to mind certain Watkins -- -- out and about that recently.
That that she said well they really want another whistle blowers I mean why is that the case could we be waiting for just so weird RS for that to be the case.
I most certainly expected others to follow man and the other realized I only Wallace senior officer and a company.
And I having -- all the all the -- silos.
There are many people who knew more than I did for twenty years and they continued to prepare perpetuate the fraud in fact there's a whole climate.
And attitude of what I call bystanders -- watch the Hong you watch the wrong doing.
You're -- people down the salary happened a little way -- and not disrupt what's going not.
It was a very it was a very it's not very comfortable.
When you go outside the box with a true.
And you have to be prepared for some hard times I don't think everybody's willing to do that you and I think that -- an exceptional few people that had that.
Intestinal fortitude that.
They see that they are becoming just as bad as those that we're doing harm I -- when I watch the seven CEOs.
And particularly like Boston.
In April 1994.
Deliberately and consciously lie in front of congress.
It just forces you to say you why and why the same person as he is -- -- just as guilty is is and.
I think we just -- my mind you just -- I'm thinking if you're an IRS that worker be that an Indian.
-- and you're hearing your chief district chief bureau of never say no we weren't targeting these groups -- this was not part of an orchestrated but when you let's say hypothetically.
Let's just say now let's BSE it that you you you did and we -- know what was going on an -- out there what do you.
-- I I believe there -- up good good and every person and I I imagine there are some people that want to come followed with it.
I think that a BSN ties -- by the Department of Justice investigation.
Because they're gonna look for these people to sort of role and as they roll they will give up the big -- fish up the line and that's what impact.
You give up the bigger base but -- you know exonerate them for many.
We're seal them for any legal.
You know attacks themselves -- that.
Doesn't -- gate Mike by becoming a witness and getting immunity you basically a shield -- from any kind of got chronicles -- Remedy that but the Justice Department has somebody.
Had to be approving this process somebody had to know what they were doing was not performing at a law.
And most certainly it happening to somebody had have the signals going often ahead this is this is immoral is wrong.
Now -- could be that people are different silos and I don't know what's going on that just give a specific -- somebody puts it all together.
Yeah pulls it all together.
I don't know what the case is I think we're seeing the tip of the iceberg is -- going on since 2010.
There's got to be some bodies -- that are willing to come out.
Now particularly given.
But the level of scrutiny that's gonna get and it's -- congressional cut the Department of Justice it's got the media.
-- mate it's it's it's right for somebody to come -- and say this is what I knew this what others involved -- let me tell you what it really what's going on.
Commuting that's gone on right now behind the scenes finding these people getting you know you -- This is a protection to go ahead and talk.
I think that could be very possible I mean most most certainly the people in the bottom there were actually doing that the agents of actually doing.
That the illegal work must know now what they were doing was wrong.
And I think they have a good motivation or incentive to say.
Come on I I wanna get out of this I don't -- be locked up in jail or I wanna be fired or whatever and with the remedy is.
They -- may come forward voluntarily maybe they'd be on sent ties that come -- With -- I don't know what it's gonna happen but most certainly the onions and a spot being peeled back.
All right we'll work very closely.
Always good -- thank you.
Likewise thank you.
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