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Sierra Club Executive Director Mike Brune on his efforts to stop the completion of the Keystone Pipeline.
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Yesterday our next guest was that he was arrested along with -- and a -- White House Mike -- is with the -- -- the executive -- At -- Sierra Club Mike forget my rent for a second case good to have you with -- on the show glad you got out of -- forestry project that I'll look you don't like the pipeline.
You don't like it because it's nasty heavy oil is from tossing this and you don't want it coming into America but I put it to -- That oil is gonna be used the Canadians are gonna get it out of the ground and if we don't take it it's going to China.
So what -- you do is irrelevant because we're gonna use that oil.
That would be compelling if it were true Stewart first thanks for having on the show.
But if you looked at the issue carefully you would know that two pipelines have been proposed to go out to the West Coast -- British Columbia both have been put on hold they're not moving forward.
Two pipelines have been proposed to go to the East Coast through Ontario and and -- the northeastern part of the US.
Neither of them are moving forward so it's not true that this development will happen no matter what.
It's also true that if we want to have a shot.
At a -- climate change in stabilizing greenhouse gas emissions we can't be investing in that parity -- fuel source on the planet just doesn't make sense.
So you think that by stopping.
In any way shape or form the exploitation.
Canadian oil from this source.
Will you think that will make a significant.
Difference to the temperature of the planet can you make that case.
Well here's what I think last year we had record droughts.
Record wildfires.
Massive super storm record temperature increases in the lower 48.
We have to do something so it's not easy to composition of the Sierra don't know what is it is it the position of the Sierra Club that super storm -- And some other storms recently.
It is a direct result -- a global warming and carbon emissions is a direct result is it.
That is the position of most climate -- -- they will not pinpoint a specific storm but what they are saying is that our storms are becoming more extreme.
Our storms are becoming more intense they're becoming more frequent.
And it's true if you look outside if you get outside if you look at what's happening around the country look around the world the Arctic is melting.
Rainforest in Brazil I have been there they are drying up.
I talked with -- rancher from Texas last week she talked about the wild fires that ripped through her neighborhood.
Destroyed 16100 storms.
My parents house I grew up in on the Jersey Shore was flooded.
Every house was damaged for miles in both directions.
All of this is happening just happen in the last year and we know that our crime is destabilizing the question.
Is will we do something about it well we'll actually take action -- I I look I'm not be quick frankly to argue with you about whether the climate is destabilized.
Or not I don't think it is you think it is.
I look we can do -- gonna gonna agree on this but look.
There's been proposed that will be proposed today a carbon tax.
I believe -- two senators in the in the house in the senate they want to tax carbon emissions.
We are baffled going to have to pay a whole lot more.
It is Sierra Club in favor.
All of a carbon tax and whether the cost of managing the price of energy which we have to pay goes off in America you in favor of.
We support we should look at this Bill Stewart I think that you would be in favor of it if you really considered it and here's why the -- couple support it because what it does is it raises revenue from two sources.
One is it puts a fee on big polluters the other one is that it ends -- dirty energy subsidies from oil coal and gas industries.
But what you should like about it is that it efficiently.
Stimulates clean energy development.
And it rebates money back to consumers to so it helps consumers that stimulate clean energy development you mean solar and wind and hydroelectric -- it right.
Right plus energy efficiency this will help a million families per year whether rise their homes.
Which is like -- tax cut solar and wind just hasn't produced forest as he just hasn't produced thirty years of so consumers and it's not producing.
Witnesses do -- oil for half -- You know it Stewart Stewart you have to catch up to this because you're you're you're not using current data let me give you some information okay.
So there are now none hello not no that's policy until after you -- last year from published a lot I'm gonna ask you questions.
How much electricity is supplied in America today vial wind how much.
Double what was produced four years ago launch Iowa like I don't I guess I'm Iowa gets 25% of their power from -- how much twinge vipers how much aunts and open it up I believe is around -- send I believe around -- national -- is around 2% is that correct.
Rough start on your guests I'm your -- if you wanna ask I'm athletic and why was he helpful if I can answer get a that I don't get bogged down in the shouting match I wanna ask you question -- -- -- have not got an answer from you yet.
What is the national percentage nationally the percentage of electricity supply in America by wind -- two day.
A break it up by state for god gave you ten states Iowa vegetarian I don't I don't know nine out of that -- -- you know 45% are.
A Colorado will be utterly viewers last solar power -- I'll ask another one.
What is that percentage nationally have electricity supplied by Sola today what his.
I -- I don't have -- off the top my head but what I do know is that solar installations broke the record in 2012.
They will break that record by 50% and 2013.
-- US before we're gonna use oil for a long time.
We will yes we're going to be using gas for awhile it was going to be using coal for awhile along the point I'm making here the point that I'm making here is that.
When we know that climate changes happened when most of us know the climate change is happening what we need to do is stop making.
Big investments in dirty fuels and make more investments in clean energy.
So I know that you're trying to trap me into giving some statistical that would be embarrassing to us here I don't want China -- not trying to trying to say is that the market -- Hi there I'm I'm really I'm not trying to track you.
-- -- -- the -- point that we in America we have access to a massive supply of fossil fuel.
It's Hollis if we went and bought it we could have an energy revolution.
In the United States it would create jobs creates enormous tax revenue.
And gives -- energy security.
We're not gonna have to buy oil from people who hate us I'm saying that isn't very good thing.
I'm saying we should go for that.
You're saying it's not a good thing because it would raise the level of carbon emissions which you say destabilized as the climate that's the two sides that the Fed.
-- Really it's not as polarized as you might wanna make that goal of being energy independent is compelling.
It's compelling to environmentalists like me out in California.
It's compelling to people and really nice suits like yourself and on the East Coast right but what I'm saying is that.
Clean energy that is also available here in the United States that is coming in now cheaper than coal.
Cheaper than -- gas puts more people to work.
Then dirty fuels like going wait a minute wait a minute wait in the -- wait a minute let's talk you're telling me that wind power law -- cheap.
Then called us well it is else no it no -- it is not I don't -- precise number at least somewhere in the region of six times more expensive to generate a kilowatt hour of electricity now come.
-- -- I'm not I didn't all the numbers I do them -- the number Stewart so in San Diego.
A natural gas plant was just rejected because solar comes in cheaper it's in South Dakota you have to lay in the cost of -- alternative power Russell read a win because of intermittent you know putting that in a costs and he should be -- the costs.
-- I'll come to that next let me answer your first question wind is coming in cheaper than than -- as well.
In South Dakota the spirit would coal fired power plant just built.
Has been mothballed they're not even utilizing it because wind is coming in cheaper than coal but in South Dakota Y eleven -- -- -- Because I've seen so many photographs of these wind farms where not one -- -- was moving the what they are wanna -- and I think it's really worrisome is throughout the history of time.
People of manipulated cause and effect -- to push agendas that often have had dramatic harm to mankind.
Now I'm just saying right now when you talk about closing coal plants and that using fossil fuels.
You're talking about ruining our economy laying off a lot of hardworking Americans and I think you need to think out that ultimately because.
The and the unattended or maybe -- -- the consequences of what you guys are pushing.
Would have a dramatic negative impact on America's economy.
Give me an example of where that's happening because what we know is that.
Clean energy west Brasilia and as a great places -- viewers happening you know -- -- worthy with a coal mines have been shut down North Dakota the great place to show you where it's not happening where they've been allowed to actually drill in take advantage of fossil fuels.
3% unemployment there I mean as the examples are two abundant to be quite -- -- Okay they'll let me give you a counterpoint to that right now there are more jobs in the solar and wind industry.
And can be fat -- -- if found in the entire coal industry even though solar and wind -- producing a small portion of our energy or wind turbines are made in China not.
Although I don't know I'm thanks for the thanks for the tone of voice -- -- wind turbines are manufactured in Iowa by American small or large.
Very very minute single digit percent -- -- -- my ruthless and I'm sorry I I I.
