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-- -- What created plus I'm told that there was this one point admits nothingness and then send an explosion.
That gradually became all the work you've got to give an explanation for how it all got here for many view government is that explanation.
Others say it got that very clear that -- night we debate.
Wherever there's a gap in scientific knowledge religion candidates as well -- -- there was no and we have an open mind.
-- because we have -- assuming the answer before we ask the question science ask questions so what is Bill Nye the Science Guy said.
Is it science vs.
God that's our show today.
I who really out of my element here on this show I like to report -- while I know what I've.
Research and understand.
But tonight science verses god I'm over my hit.
But I want to learn so we brought in guests -- think and fight about this a lot we begin with some at the beginning what created life.
I was taught there was this big bad.
The entire universe was contained in a single tiny point until there was this explosion.
Of energy things expand it and then -- them.
-- -- And I -- believe that some very Smart people are convinced that's the way it went down by.
Did some god caused the big -- and how -- humans.
Happen is there an intelligent designer.
Yes says Dinesh D'Souza who is passionate about christianity.
No -- as Michael -- founder of skeptic magazine so.
Nobody you know you can't be certain.
Why can't be certain there's no god but I can be reasonably confident as a social scientists that.
The anthropology religion the psychology religion shows that.
People invent gods to explain.
Causality in the world you wanna know why there storms -- -- accidents quite of people die what are the -- -- over.
From hunter gathers all the way up to the modern world.
Humans construct gods to explain things and they're all -- these are different gods different religions.
And so we've come down to my fears -- but what are the chances that those 999.
Other guys are false gods.
And this one is the one true god of the most people happen to believe in today or that their -- socially constructed psychologically -- -- -- -- what are the chances.
I think when we think about god you can almost think about a tall mountain gods of the top of it not -- -- was standing in the base.
And we're just seeing these little tributaries of of information come down and the different religions our efforts to.
To call what's at the top it's not surprising that they tell a slightly different story but they're all looking in the same direction so I would say all of the 999.
Religions are right compositing a transcendent god a deity that actually is responsible for all the evidence it's it's an inference to an explanation -- that would you've got to give an explanation for how it all got here.
Right so you can you can take Michael's explanation which is that material things are all there -- there's nothing else but that actually is also a leap of faith he's assuming.
That there -- only material things and there's nothing else.
What if not a leap of faith that say it's -- level of confidence gain from 500 years of science.
Consistently and reliably finding causes.
The facts and displacing religion.
As the mechanism to explain things like I -- isn't it an assumption of modern science and material the reality is all there is it is an assumption because that works because of work because it works for the assassination of god works -- don't you -- for hundreds of years people have believed in god because it has worked.
And that it has made sense of their lightly because they were ignorant they do they have any other.
That they had no other explanation for lightning.
And what that was true of ancient man but.
Just a scientific knowledge progresses.
There's no reason religious knowledge can't progress one of the things about -- -- -- -- -- from part of saying we get to get smarter over time -- religious people don't so woman cannot judge religious people about what they believe 101000 -- -- -- doesn't change much -- -- if you look at religion first of -- as an evolution within religion from buy up all of the isn't a -- -- -- -- but second even within religion.
-- one of the things that I think religious people learn from other types of knowledge so for example the Bible says god made the universe.
And god made man but the Bible doesn't say how.
So I see no problem -- saying I can learn from evolution I can learn from the Big Bang it's a way of sort of.
Filling out the Bible says seven days -- the Bible to seven days but from the third -- fourth century.
Christians have believed that those seven days -- -- Your -- I guess when -- something before you respond and that Michael has been on the show debating this topic before he debated priest.
And afterward I got lots of email from people who said.
He shouldn't have had that -- Tony should -- had an apologist.
An apologist I have no idea what that is I thought that was someone who apologizes it turns -- an apologist to someone who.
Does what the Nash does who argues.
Why there's a god.
Well come from the Greek what apple -- here which means to give the defense that has nothing to do it making an apology are are kind of repenting now for something.
And I want to emphasize that apologetic -- -- on the basis of reason alone it doesn't appeal to scripture or doesn't appeal to revelation.
It's based on the same language of reason and and that's that's that leaves room for -- skeptical attitude toward the world.
Let's bring in -- scientists.
In Hutchinson is a Christian who teaches nuclear physics at MIT.
Lawrence process of physicists from Arizona State and he's an atheist whose new book asserts that the universe came from nothing.
-- -- Absolutely the -- key question is when he's when you have this kind -- that does.
Did do you need -- god as a guard necessary.
Is there evidence for god.
And as irrational -- in an regarding answer some of you I don't know at all no no no you don't you don't need god to create something for nothing the natural laws do it all the time is it that it that the ancient distinction between something nothing like most of the -- ideas that the -- talked about.
Our our -- now been changed -- thrown out by science.
Others actually no evidence that there's any purpose to the universe and it's clearly not rational -- forgive me fish is just not -- it's much more rational.
As Michael suggested -- Force your beliefs to conform to the evidence of reality rather than the other way around.
You know Hutchinson I'm -- -- your professor of nuclear science all I take it that you look at the evidence.
And yet -- -- confident that there's a guy.
I am and I'd like to respond to what Lawrence just said.
His book doesn't offer us a broad.
Doesn't offer us -- a -- of -- free of golf it doesn't offer us -- universe from nothing.
What Lawrence -- Is a universe from the levels of physics.
And I would hope that he as a fellow physicists would agree that the -- physics on nothing.
Well I actually think there is an intelligent design what convinced you.
What convinces me most about the truth of christianity.
Is the person a life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
That seems to me to be evidence it's not scientific evidence so if you insist that scientific evidence is the only type of evidence.
That you will listen to then -- yes rule out religion but you will also rule out a whole.
Host of other.
Types of human knowledge like history or all philosophy and let's let let me let me jump in for second so you commenced by the resurrection which you say is consistent.
With the laws with the -- nature certainly isn't I mean generally over -- from as an assistant not inconsistent with biology your physics and then you're convinced by it but but what evidence do you have that it happened essentially this -- an argument.
What about whether or not miracles -- possible because the resurrection is a miracle and of course water into wine -- right.
So the key question is is can we say based money -- we know that scientific laws are true always and everywhere and there are no exceptions to them.
Notice that even Lawrence doesn't say that he's slipped and the what probably.
Because the -- because it was a philosopher Hume 200 years ago pointed out.
But from no amount of empirical generalizations however large.
Can you draw a conclusion that is true as a matter of logic all you can say is that every time we've measured light it goes that speed C.
But you don't -- -- a star a hundred light years away it goes about -- we never do it.
-- measure we -- -- -- we measure it you -- of at this the light emitted by that star.
Is directly related to speed of light by the laws -- aren't actually he's not in Milwaukee for me yeah I'll tell -- I don't believe I -- I don't believe that.
People are good because of religion.
And wouldn't be other -- well.
Mel I think that there is a universal morality ability human nature but I also think that religion historically is that transmission belt for teaching morality I mean think of how few people have learned a morality from -- Or hagel -- show and how are people have lined up morality from christianity and -- Islam -- Hinduism.
I haven't I have a problem with the resurrection.
So you believe that Jesus was the son of god and god incarnate.
Also right 311 and three -- mafia that's correct an -- so tributary of hereditary.
But but but.
But -- is is -- right so as I understand it for us to be saved.
To save us from himself.
This sounds to me incomprehensible.
Barking -- Barking why do you think that it's -- that we have well over.
32 and a half billion Christians in the world right would you be so arrogant as to claim that 13 of the human race is barking -- well.
The logic is barking that the people themselves are not -- may well -- I believe -- PLO but other than most the very I think we can't have three billion people don't accept Jesus threw a no no we don't regularly you know they are the only things you it's called -- -- -- -- is my -- -- It's one thing to say that you know.
A bunch of Texans who are having beer and saw UF -- out of their minds.
But to actually claim that the entire human race -- not so logic of the argument.
We Texans were not.
Chris -- I have I have I don't know but I think what does that chart humans are clearly hard part to want to believe that's as Mike was saying we created gods from the time -- we've been human.
And we have to recognize that scientists that we want to -- and we have to work against that we have an experiment gets -- result.
We want to believe it's significant but we have to check to see if it really is and most of the time.
It isn't selling they don't believe Newton kept looking at other products that they were products of their talk and -- well I don't and you don't talk about.
I don't talk about Newton because this christianity most of which was barking mad but we talk about him because of the science he produced because it actually affected our university his theology was -- relevant and as good as gone in the dustbin of history.
And I think the point about this this miracle nonsense that finish was talking about is -- that.
I'm sure I can't disprove that miracles happen I can't disprove that we were here that the whole universe wasn't -- fifteen seconds a goal and we were.
Created here with the memories of this delightful conversation we've had a for a little bit longer than that.
But it's not rational to believe in that I can't disprove it but it's not it's kind of irrational and -- adjust your irrational well for.
-- while I think science itself teaches us that things that seems to pandas and at one time right proved to be not so stupendous.
Another time so for example -- idea making a blind man CTU -- -- seems preposterous but the idea of bringing a dead person back to life.
Now what does it was the case a hundred years from now that due to technology we actually could make blind people see suddenly the idea.
That blind people can see won't be so preposterous so we are prisoners of the limitations of current knowledge and consider everything that we don't know to be so out of bounds and it's even unthinkable and it.
Until I get paid to think about the things that we don't understand right -- and I I I take exception that I think scientists realize their limits stored knowledge and in the areas where we.
Not -- haven't measured things and don't understand things they'll -- lot of open possibilities in fact.
We have an open mind we because we have -- -- the answer before we ask the question which is the difference between science and religion here from from.
Michael that -- that things are are crazy we think here from Lawrence that things are irrational.
This just seems to me a chant I mean you I can accept that you don't believe thinks things this and that and you might have for tobacco.
But it but to refer to animus.
Be rational -- craziness.
When you know a flood of the world believes in these things -- seems to me just a way of ending the debate.
I think I think this is ultimately not about theology what it is about is that as we are human beings -- thrown into the world and we can't help but ask some basic questions like.
Why is -- -- world.
What's the purpose of -- life.
Were we going after we die.
Not here it's actually science -- answer these three questions.
Don't have a clue.
Don't have a clue and don't have a clue.
So this is the domain of religion to try to give an account for a very difficult questions on which -- has nothing to say well that's not what I could tell all book about where we Khalid Ali -- a book about how the universe came an ally Laura.
-- and Michael you're comfortable with the idea that when you die it's just to.
Over -- absolutely -- it's like what it was like before you were born when people ask what it's like after -- and I say what what was it like before airborne.
We we don't have time to settle this tonight -- I'm sure we would with another few minutes the Internet at all for joining the argument coming up.
-- by the sun hits -- yeah strong opinions about dot vs no god and.
-- get started on earth the evolution began well there's we can figure.
The ancient earth was covered -- the -- little over three billion years ago -- the ocean with a sort of primordial soup that living things got started it.
That's Bill Nye the Science Guy he teaches science to kids in this year he did a video for big think dot com that said.
Grown -- if you wanted to deny evolution and live in -- world inconsistent with everything we observe in the universe fine.
But don't make your kids do it.
That -- people's attention as you can see from these headlines.
It inspired also some believers in creationism to do their own videos to argue that he was wrong so.
-- nine maybe you are wrong you can't know for sure.
But you can show that evolution is a real thing and you can absolutely show the earth -- not six or 101000 years old that is that's just wrong.
So I'm not going after anybody's religion.
But you we can't use tax dollars intended for science education.
Two teach this idea that the earth is 101000 years old as an alternative.
To the observable facts and that's that's inappropriate that's what started this whole.
And you're kind of going after religion because you say your world becomes fantastically complicated when you don't believe -- -- -- Well yeah I did when I dig up ancient dinosaur bones or fossil bones.
It's just that you're asking too much especially of a kid.
Who has critical thinking skills who's observing the world around Hemmer you're asking too much it's this it's inconsistent with what we -- -- about half of Americans are pretty inconsistent 46%.
Believe god created human beings some time in the last 101000 years says scallop if that's the case.
As soon as educator we have failed it's just these.
The -- of evolution is observable irrefutable and and it's wonderful it's it's empowering why learn wonderful how we learn.
Because it it gives you perspective of what I like to call our place in space.
That we are.
In a sense.
One of the ways the universe has come to know itself.
And that is wonderful.
The process of science the way we.
We learn about nature is the best idea humans have ever had there's two questions that drive -- at all.
Where did we come from and are we alone every one.
Everyone is asked him or -- -- those two questions and when you pursue that the answers to those questions you make these discoveries and evolution is one of are we discover.
These things scientifically the Big Bang I believe these things happen but.
That's what the onus is overwhelming to be able to don't make -- operatives -- -- the evidence is overwhelming but there's no evidence of of that spark that created actual life.
Why can't -- got a if you wanna say it's god I it is unknowable as we say you can't test.
You can't prove a negative and sort of do that is to say I can't prove it's not for example.
And but the earth is not 101000 years old.
Ancient dinosaurs did -- this planet.
Up to 65 million years ago evolution was not a top is not a top down thing Brothers.
A plan design on the drawing board or the spiritual quote -- the drawing board and then organisms are created.
Instead its bottom up.
That one's wife gets going it creates.
And these mutations lead to us but it it just slipped in the line once life -- -- what I mean why should we believe that.
Wasn't done by god other than than what you have a -- I am looking like a science -- I -- a science nerd but I encourage people to Wear bow ties they don't.
They don't slip into your soup little flop into your flask but it.
That aside you try it you run the tests you'll examine the evidence and I just wanna say for me as a critical thinker or guy tries to think critically.
A guy who works to think scientifically.
To -- to argue that there's some words.
Translated I believe if I understand it from Aramaic.
That are that service of science text that's just not satisfactory to me.
-- if you want to claim that god started life and and three and a half billion years.
Went by and here we are or -- that's very difficult to disprove.
On the other hand if you say that the earth is only 101000 years old that's very straightforward to disprove that's been.
And so that's that's what started this whole -- we don't wanna teach that to our.
Our scientists and engineers of the future as an alternative to the provable discoverable facts.
Thank you -- bill nine science guy coming through.
If you're -- -- that this person who believes that the morning after pill birth control -- is murder.
What gives our government the right to force you to pay for what you think customer.
We debate -- next.
If you are religious you most likely believe life begins at conception that once an eight is fertilized that's a life.
Created by god.
And if man ends that life that's murder.
So what does that say about Obama care the new health care law requires employers to pay for contraception for all their employees including.
The morning after pill so obamacare.
Forces employers who think abortion is murder to pay for what they think is murder.
And that's an assault on liberty -- Tim Carney at the Washington examiner.
No that's not the way to think about it says attorney camera holder so it's not why.
Well first of all employers aren't forced to get their employees.
Birth control the in the health insurance plan is supposed to cover certain things and this is paid for through their -- and so -- it's the insurance company.
It is giving health care to the employees obamacare requires employer to fund the contraception.
Of their employees and that -- you know that's an infringement on number do you know how many people are actually in support of this idea out -- of of this bill.
That there are 70%.
A new poll just came up -- -- -- -- accept that I would -- still say so what.
If it's 90% it's -- -- tyranny of the majority.
You see the problem if so if you think it's murdering your being a force to enable it.
No you're not enabling murder you are providing health care to your employee and that's it immoral should not be in the workplace there's lots of people want to run a business and what they considers immoral way.
Yeah you -- get off sacks -- but it.
Does not involve sex what somebody does now husbands are gonna say you know what I'm not going to hire you or I'm gonna fire you because I heard that you have a boyfriend your having premarital sex with -- percent -- and I believe -- that's immoral.
It's just the employers should be forbidden for doing that this guy starts a company he has his principles whatever they are -- and get.
The right to say you stand in your head if I want you to or don't work here but.
This is the -- Obama care is a -- And the law requires health insurance who -- and -- anything yet you're comfortable with this big law making sure women get these services that.
Government is right to impose this on employers.
I believe that if it is a prescription medication which birth control is and it should be provided by the employer may only have to pay for prescription.
Yes a woman lots -- the reason they present for that.
Watch that the line because.
It's a prescription.
So I covered -- that part of that's part of health care are prescription medication.
What I'm saying is is that if you want to take condoms are not covered by health care by obamacare.
If you want to take this I had a debate.
All know they're never going to be Q what are tickets out of that they put birth control pills right next comments -- IL four and you won't happen problem.
What bothers me is that it's government telling everybody what to do what -- the next government is a religious conservative government and they -- That no company can pay for contraception.
And they -- this is part of the thing is that when people talk about a culture war in the United States.
It's always presented as oh well you've got these religious conservatives trying to impose their morality.
But even the way the contraception mandate debate is presented no these bosses want to impose their morality but the people imposing their morality in America -- mostly.
I think are the the cultural left I have to fun Planned Parenthood with my tax dollars -- -- -- -- have to pay for my employees.
Contraception and morning after pill and so it's becoming illegal to live as a conservative Christian as a conservative view as a conservative Muslim that's a culture war -- American.
That but here's here's from trying to wrap my head around if -- a conservative person.
Are you AD.
Are you -- AE.
-- liberal because unplanned pregnancy.
Costs twelve billion dollars a year this is this -- up by the Brookings institute twelve billion dollars -- are you saying OK well then.
No birth control because I'm out -- -- moral conservative by you know it cost taxpayers all this money twelve billion years so I'm okay with that.
I -- I think this is an argument for I'm I'm a Catholic and I think it's an argument for a lot of my fellow Catholics and Christians to understand why government should be getting into these games in the first place because this is exactly the sort of the camel's nose under the -- Situation where once government is paying for health care that all the sudden.
They give sits in this excuse for government say well this is how did my lord -- your life.
-- -- -- And pregnancies you have to you can eat this don't -- you can't smoke this cigarette so this is an argument for anybody says I don't want government to infringe on my liberty.
This take another step back and think maybe government shouldn't be playing a role in any of these aspects of our lives in the first birth control pills cost.
Ten dollars a month at Wal-Mart.
Why does -- have to be -- government from Barbara Streisand could -- for every poor woman's birth not this is not about buying it at ten dollars a month.
You're your birth control well it's any it's what about.
You know like -- -- Viagra are OxyContin or any any kind of a prescription help help -- -- -- our hearts -- and nobody should be in the eighth our or anybody else in any -- I think it is under it obamacare their demand for Viagra you know it's part of the prescription health plan this is these are things didn't -- can't say you know what I believe that you shouldn't take.
You shouldn't I if you're -- late day.
Maybe they're not telling you what you can and can't take they're saying why -- -- The only thing -- -- -- her why shouldn't it's but I created this business why can't I say what drugs you take you don't like it don't work for me.
That's part of -- don't I don't want you to take your your heart not a -- even though you have congestive heart failure or work for me if you don't you don't -- -- and not have a -- worker be that you don't ever.
To your employer's money but it's even a step back from that is saying is it.
Is this is not about whether employers are allowed to say.
You can't take any birth control at all this is another step further simply saying.
What should the employer be forced to pay for and you are saying that you every right to that employers -- if you want to pay in cash instead of contraception that will be a -- -- -- -- January for a dollar is this is through the health plan this is not the employer is not giving a person money and saying here's ten -- employers being forced to pay for the health plan right it is the -- -- employees pay their premiums remember that they're paying for their -- their health -- well.
But the employees like me who do not want to pay for premiums that cover contraception because.
My wife and I were -- perhaps we have four kids we have a growing -- -- -- we don't wanna buy that you're making us pay for the plan that covers contraception for everybody.
That's that's an external lighting up -- plants.
And that if my employer wants to -- -- planet doesn't cover your contraception.
That should be up to the employer because you do not have a right to his money.
But I think it's an ignorant ignorant -- argument to say that.
Contraception is only because you don't want to have a child there are plenty of people who take birth control because they have they have terrible cranberry or.
Throw it says we're out of time here I say they should pay for themselves or Barbara Streisand can afford to -- all the women's me.
Thank you -- current camera holder coming up my struggles with -- But first this is Milan have a special problem with.
-- Religious American scientists have told me there is no conflict between science and religion.
I would think that there must speed but I guess I'm wrong because science has made great advances in America.
A place where nine out of ten people say they can believe in god.
But what about the Islamic world.
A thousand years ago the Middle East made great strides in science people there invented the wind -- algebra.
They were the first to promote -- in Madison.
But that was about a thousand years ago lately in the Islamic world scientific progress has stall.
And many say it's because Muslim fundamentalism is just hostile to science.
Let's ask the -- gets so he's a Muslim and a physicist he teaches Astro physics at a university in the United Arab Emirates and he flew here from there today because.
You want -- clear this up this is a big conflict.
It's not necessarily a big conflict but it is an issue that needs to be clear and indeed -- -- Modern science has established a new paradigm meaning that -- -- the idea of -- to give all the idea of spirited and leave out.
Demons and angels that such -- -- And work cult as if there is no gulf emirate as if there is no other interventions sciences separate its trial and error it's not about his right.
Religious people in Muslims in particular find this idea distressing because indeed tradition of Islam.
Slams the understanding of the world the contemplation of the world is supposed to be the path -- golf it's -- -- Not the -- -- -- but at least leaves you and show you that there is some glory that there is some plan.
There is some purpose to all of this and so to do slams as if golf is -- better.
And then to go home and pray.
Is something that has not quite been worked out in the Islamic.
In the Christian world some people are troubled by this a Georgia congressman -- all that stuff I was taught about evolution the Big Bang.
This is lies straight from the pit of hell.
But we have lots of scientific progress in America and -- often from religious scientists what's the difference.
The difference is the Muslim world went through several centuries of decline in all of this integration.
All over teed off in the to -- in the west there was this separation of church and states that so both established itself quickly.
Which in the Muslim world is the very halt to digest how this is just go away.
-- -- -- -- -- -- windmill you know and then stop.
Not immediately it took some time to move to decline you don't use them in Ohio's school up and down on the Roman empire of -- collapsed and disappeared.
-- compile also collapsed or at least fragmented and the most thing to bed and did the same it will most economical it's -- -- people political.
-- -- something happened while the Muslim world walls slowly -- think.
You're up to cough and when -- -- to -- for the -- I was with.
-- -- scientific revolution on within the -- -- that's a truck.
All of a sudden.
Moved within half a century one century the most -- world was way behind.
Some Muslim fundamentalist criticize science simply because it's -- Or fought out now is -- yes that is true particularly the ideas that you mentioned -- biological evolution of human evolution.
A small G big bank stem -- -- -- there are all these ideas that are.
A little bit disturbing.
And many Muslims just look at them and say this is from the west so we don't have to take them out so what's it like in your university -- your teaching.
Physics but might university.
And there is this so -- battle as the three try to find between.
Modern education as we call it -- put a twist them look look at because -- them because it more than education but there's also the whole idea of heritage.
The Arab Muslim heritage that we try to -- to the students so that they grow up -- in a balanced personality in the balanced mind.
80% of Muslims say they don't want evolution talk.
It's -- percent the most things and reject evolution of them a smaller fraction say if you want to teach it as a Fiore quote -- quote.
Is this is the way we currently or at least the -- like -- try to explain -- that is okay but it is still a big problem with 80% projected.
And let's say 50% say don't teach it until the 50% say.
He -- -- -- the -- to take it as the real truth -- just going to -- assault under the theory this is not the dominant feeling in evolution is -- mini mini bottles of the most and out of -- well it's halting all schools in Egypt it's not remotely except that it's not even to -- -- -- -- -- the students -- -- you this though because it's on the curriculum but we do -- syllable -- believe -- which is a problem.
You know -- quotes we can't -- to the discussion and to.
Explaining to people that it doesn't have to be if you think that this evolution could be he -- stake.
Hopefully we look out.
Thank you note Nadal gets -- coming up.
What what a world without god looked like.
My next guest says you wouldn't want to live.
Never imagined hall.
-- -- -- -- -- that song imagine John -- suggest that if there were no religion we live in harmony.
And given all the people killed in the crusades and Islamic holy wars he's got a point.
But it's also true that millions of people were murdered by atheists.
Sixty to a hundred million depending how you define murder talking about -- Hitler style.
Larry -- and says it's because they were -- -- that they kill people.
You don't know that when he really well.
-- the way the Russian novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky but it and that is if there.
Is no immortality there can be no virtue and all things are permissible that is to say -- there.
There is no -- -- -- anything goes in you can do whatever you can get away with the -- Clearly he was so I was part of the driving force behind some of those.
I don't know IAE and not convinced there's a god I still try to do good things 'cause I wanted a good thing.
-- doesn't play into it.
I don't think the point here is that if you were an atheist hit it always equals genocide and I didn't say the I'm and I'm not sure you're sure a miracle if you are sure -- -- guy.
But we do know this that that these were very definitely.
On states that that Saturday at at at a government -- liable instituted.
Atheism and the result was some wired if he has to get eliminated religion it very very definitely.
But then from the top down they were it's it's it's a story about big government killing people people well dictate on -- -- it didn't matter if the people were -- -- They -- as certainly from I mean.
Listen I think big -- governments are part of the problem here but if you alternately believe that.
There's no one to judge in the next line if your actions and that's one.
I think it remove some of the some of the incentive for.
For good behavior and and perhaps you begin to see your fellow man has nothing more than an accident to space and time.
What about all the Christian crusaders who killed people.
Well I I I wouldn't first of all begin to deny that many evil things have been done in the name of religion many evil things have been done in the name of science.
I'm as well but I don't think we would say that science is evil.
And -- and I'm not prepared to say that all religion is evil certainly could say that that those killings that were done in the name of Christ.
We're not consistent with Christ's own teachings so in that case I would say that religion was hijacked.
Just as we might say that the -- dot eugenics movement hijack science.
Your book the grace of argues that when people are religious.
Good things spread when he me.
Well I mean this that when there is say a significant.
Presence of Christians within a -- and I'm not speaking of of all religions here just -- John speaking specifically of christianity.
That there is a reciprocal.
On a fact that.
There's sought more care for the poor there's more carefully elderly there's more care for the sick for the orphaned.
And I think the data bears this now give the numbers it's a lot it's a remarkable guy gets it it really is I'm John.
The average person who -- themselves on a Christian which we know is a very high number in this in this country.
Gives three times as much of their money and their time.
The charities the average evangelical.
Gives ten times as much when you begin to apply that to an entire culture.
You begin to understand why in countries where there as an absence of a vibrant church.
There is also.
A lack of concern for the -- for the for the ones that Jesus called the least of these.
You even go on to say that in the declaration of independence where -- as we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal.
The only way a statement like that makes sense is if man is in -- by his creator yet certain inalienable right that's right.
A statement like that only makes sense with in a Christian context that is to say what -- or what what is self evident shall about the equality of man it's just right.
But but it isn't because no no other.
Nation would would have that particular view our lettuce to say no no where outside of the west.
We believe that because we have been heavily influenced by Judeo Christian worldview because.
The only thing that is self -- all -- man is his any quality -- social physical.
There there -- massive inning all of these so what does a statement like that mean it means that in some.
On spiritual sense that men are equal and that of course only makes sense if there's a god thank you -- content coming up my.
Personal struggle with science.
I believe in science.
-- off -- science gives us things like.
Television and longer lives.
My ancestors ran around naked in the cold struggling to keep a fire going most died before they reached age forty.
Science brings us a better life.
Real facts things we could touch religion.
-- -- I wish I believe in god but I don't there may be a -- but I'm not convinced.
I was raised Protestant went to the congregation old church studied the Bible.
Then I discovered my ancestors were -- I studied the -- try to believe that too but just couldn't get there.
I want to believe because I see the -- that religion brings many of you most of you with the polls are correct.
Oh I don't know about these -- for this show.
I envy those of you who believe lots of research shows religious people are happier than the rest of us.
It could be just because you go to religious services and social networks -- -- -- friends and spending more time with friends often brings happy.
And I suspect it's more than that believing brings many of you -- purpose peace.
Good for you.
On the other religion has led people to do awful things.
The aztecs killed thousands to appease their god the son god needed daily nourishment.
India's -- sick strangled people to a Peace -- The crusaders killed hundreds of thousands of people.
And then in Massachusetts the pilgrims set up a religious police state and killed women they called -- Islamic Jihad is killed millions and today are done.
Makes me nervous.
Of course I also have to say lately Christians and most religions have pretty much stop killing people.
And you religious people you do make the world better.
Not only are you more at peace he would do more for others.
Catholic schools teach the same low income kids that government -- striking that the Catholic schools do a better job at a fraction of the cost.
If your religious you're more likely to donate money and turn it.
Just figure churches to other organizations.
Here even more likely to donate blood.
Sometimes I meet people are going to Africa -- someplace to try to help the poor and I'm struck that there almost always Christians traveling with their church group.
After disasters like the tsunami.
And hurricane sand.
It's groups like these to give the most money and volunteer time.
I volunteered to help out after seeing -- two but more volunteers came from churches.
-- motors told this group of mormons -- disappeared.
But you stay.
So I was glad to hear from scientists tonight that science and religion and co exist we need you both.
That's our show thanks for --
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